This interview was conducted for the Sun by Tensho David Schneider and Susan Garner in Berkeley, California, on October 12, 1988, for the Vajradhatu Sun, now known as
The Shambhala Sun

Sun: Could you tell us a little about your early life and training?

Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche: I was born in Kongbu, that's in Tibet, now China, in the Iron Tiger Year in the early morning of the Tibetan New Year. On the morning of my birth a peach tree appeared near my bedside. Iwas raised there. I was recognized as Khengken Tulku, the incarnation of Tulku Pema Yeshe. I belonged also in part to the Taksham Monastery, as I was also recognized as the incarnation of Taksham Tulku.

S: Rinpoche, how were you recognized?

SDR: I was partly recognized by His Holiness Karmapa, actually. It's quite intricate. What happened is that Dudjom Rinpoche didn't want me to go back into the Taksham Monastery. Since he didn't want that, he asked His Holiness Karmapa to recognize me as Tulku Pema Yeshe, which I was. I was an emanation of Tulku Pema Yeshe as well as Taksham Tulku. It's a double emanation Happening at the same time. His reason was that at Taksham at that time there was not so much harmony between the lama and the monks, and all the Taksham lamas were living very... their life was not long, because of disturbances in the monastery. So on that ground, my father requested His Holiness Karmapa to recognize me as Tulku Pema Yeshe.

Taksham was also in the Nyingma lineage. Taksham Tulku was a famous Nyingma terton master, who discovered many teachings. The reason His Holiness Karmapa had to recognize me was that he was an arbitrator. The monks that came to get me from Taksham monastery had definite indications that I would be born as a son to Dudjom Rinpoche, and to my mother - they were given all the locality and everything. According to the Tibetan government, then, if you belong to a specific monastery, you have to go to that monastery. Parents do not have the right to hold the child back. So in my case they wanted me to go to that monastery. Later, they agreed that if His Holiness Karmapa would intervene and divine, then whatever he said would be the final word. So in fact, His Holiness recognized me as Tulku Pema Yeshe, and he had to recognize another Taksham Tulku, in another locality. There are tulku emanations of body, speech, and mind, so another was recognized.

Tulku Pema Yeshe was a Nyingma too. In fact, Tulku Pema Yeshe was an emanation of my father's father, Jamphel Norbu. Jamphel Norbu passed away and became Tulku Pema Yeshe. Tulku Pema Yeshe passed away, and then, there I was. My father would normally say that he had already seen me change three incarnations. My mother would say two, because she had me me when I was Tulku Pema Yeshe. That time when I was in Tibet, I passed away quite early. In my thirties, after having received the Rinchen Terzod wang from my father. My father said I made a definite commitment to him, saying that I would be reborn as his son, if he would pay that kindness back to me, because I had been his father in a previous life. My father, agreed, so there was a definite communication.

When I was Tulku Pema Yeshe, I received a lot of teachings from Rinpoche. I was receiving the Rinchen Terzod from him and I passed away during the transmission. This is one of the most important Nyingma transmissions; it's the collected works of all the tertons basically, the totality of the lineage teachings. It's a seven month transmission.

S: Your formal training after that...you went to a monastery?

SDR: I wasn't given to the monastery, because I was the only son of Dudjom Rinpoche's from my mother. Moreover, Rinpoche already had a prophecy as to my training, and particularly where I should be and so on. It's very lucky that I went to India, and was able to come out here. If I had been given to a monastery, I think I'd still be stuck in Tibet.

Through this mother of mine, no son was yet born. All she gave birth to were several daughters. And then I'm the only son. At the moment I have two sisters, before that I had a few more who have since passed away in childbirth. My mother holds very clear vision, basically. Even my father would consult my mother for a lot of things. Still at that time, most of the lamas were asking my mother to recognize tulkus and so forth. She has a very clear way of divining things. So in her dream, a lady came to her and gave her a nine-pronged dorje wrapped in a blue silk scarf and told her, "Keep this. This is terma. It will be beneficial to you." As she looked at it she found one of the heads of the dorje...well, not damaged, but slightly shaking. It wasn't firmly in place. And my mother thought with such a beautiful dorje, if one head is shaking...she was a little worried about it. It just happens to be that way, but it doesn't affect the purity of the dorje."

At that time Dudjom Rinpoche also told my mother that I would be conceived. My mother had a dream of my coming into her house, and she sort of didn't want me in the house. The house was representing her womb and she didn't want me to come in, but I sort of forced my way in, saying that Rinpoche had given me permission to stay in the house, and really I should stay in the house. She said that when I came into the house there was a retinue of people saying that I had come from one of the buddhafields. Immediately she felt that I had come into her womb and she wrote back to my father - Rinpoche was giving the Terzod wang on the other side of Tibet and my mother was in another area. So Rinpoche said yes, that's me, and that's how it happened. My mother's name is Sangyum Rigzin Wangmo.

S: Did she connect you with the prong of the dorje that was shaking?

SDR: No, that prong of the dorje was for my leg, because I was born with one of my legs weak. That indication of the prong was referring to my leg.

S: Oh, I didn't understand the meaning...

SDR: (Laughing) Oh, it's just a story, though, it's like a fairy tale.

S: Then you were raised mostly with your mother?

SDR: I was mostly with my father, and mostly I was able to observe the way my father lived, the way he carried on his practices, the kinds of people that he met. In India I went to a Catholic school and a Protestant school. My mother felt it was important for me to study the English language. She felt it would be beneficial. I also had tutors that Rinpoche appointed who were working very closely with him. I had one especially qualified tutor named Lachung Apo who I studied with for a couple of years. He had studied in Mendro Ling monastery and almost became the abbott there, but instead he lost his vows. After that he went totally into secret tantric practices. He was a very realized teacher.

S: He lost his vows?

SDR: Yes. It's a stage of development where he felt that he wanted to transcend the monastic path and become a yogi. Also he lived with this lady who was a prostitute, who was in fact a dakini. She gave up her body and left one day, without leaving any trace behind. My tutor was involved with her.

S: Did you have any trouble coming out of Tibet?

SDR: No, there wasn't any problem there, because my father went for medical treatment, so to speak. We left much before the invasion.

S: He had a prophecy?

SDR: Yes, he had a prophecy and he also advised many of his disciples to leave Tibet. Tibet was already prophesied to be invaded by China. In our monastery especially, there were a lot of signs of the deities that indicated that it was bad. Several of the protector statues...from their mouths blood was oozing out, and their directions changed too. The whole state was shifted to the East. And then, you know, diving by crystal...all the divinations pointed out to move. So we moved.

S: Where were your monasteries?

SDR: Mine was in Kongbu, and Rinpoche also had build one there too.

S: How old were you when you came out of Tibet?

SDR: Seven or eight. But I have a very fresh memory of all that, somehow. I remember fortunately enough, meeting Rinpoche's mother before leaving Tibet. At that time I must have been only two or three years old, but I remember meeting her, staying with her at a restaurant.

S: Are you practicing these days as a monk or householder or...?

SDR: I'm a lay practitioner. I was married once before, and then separated. I was married to a Bhutanese before, but in relating to my world, and the many things that came up, I was separated. Since then, I've just remained as I am. My wife and child are still in Bhutan.

(Note: Rinpoche is now remarried to Sonam Chokyi with two wonderful daughters, Dechen and Tseyang.)



Rinpoche being given a flower by his youngest daughter Tseyang, Spain, 1995


S: Are you Thinly Norbu's younger brother?

SDR: Yes. I am. My mother was the second consort. My father married once before and she produced Thinly Norbu and all of them. That marriage broke up. Then Rinpoche married my mother, and from that union, there are two sisters and myself. My sisters live in France.

S: Rinpoche had a prophecy that he had to marry my mother. It was important for him to extend his life. You see, normally the Nyingma tertons don't live that long at all, unless they marry the right consort. My mother happened to be the one that was predicted. After my father's first marriage, my father didn't get involved in looking for my mother. What happened was the protectors got involved. One of Rinpoche's principal protectors himself went and approached the father. My mother's marriage to my father is something very unique.

To prolong his life the protector went to find the right dakini. He went in person and made the connection from my mother's family to him. He went and asked for her, and then connected my father to her. He appeared in my father's vision and said, "Stay, the right lady will now come to see you." My grandfather, my mother's father, was completely fascinated, because he realized it was a protector. The visitor was of a very aristocratic family and approached to give a ritual object from my father's monastery - which was missing from my father's monaster. Things like that happened.

He came in a physical form, and told my grandfather that a certain book, containing certain transmissions that he was looking for was in Dudjom Rinpoche's monastery, and nobody else had it. He said he should go and ask for Dudjom Rinpoche to give him that transmission. He said. "As a present, I give you this. You should send your daughter to see him for the book." My grandfather was surprised that somebody had walked right into his room, and talked to him. He called the guards and servants, and they said that nobody had come in, that they had been guarding the place very thoroughly. Earlier he had had a dream and he connected these things together, and that's how it happened.

S: If I understand you correctly, your father, His Holiness, held transmissions from all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism?

SDR: That's right.

S: Do you hold transmissions from all four schools?

SDR: No. At the moment I'm not holding transmissions from all four schools, although I will be receiving those transmissions. That definetly will be an important part of my evolution. But at this moment, I'm holding His Holiness's direct terma transmissions, which is called Tersar lineage or "New Treasure" lineage. Rinpoche called all the revelations he received from Dudjom Lingpa, his previous incarnation, and during his life, all the treasure that was revealed to him at that specific time by Guru Rinpoche was called the "New Treasure". Rinpoche himself also being a terton further propagated all the teachings of his predecessor.

S: When did Dudjom Lingpa live?

SDR: He was born in 1835. Before that Rinpoche had already emanated as Dorje Thogme, Dudul Rolpa Tsal...he emanated four times as four different tertons. And the last was Yeshe Dorje. In this last emanation he was known as Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje. He is more widely known as Dudjom Rinpoche, but his real name was Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje.

As a terton, he emanated four times. But from the point of the emanation itself, I think he is the 14th. He was the first Buddha who gave empowerment to the thousand Buddhas, and he promised to manifest as the last Buddha, Mopa Thaye. So from the point of view of the emanation, it's quite a long lineage.



Dudjom Lingpa statue from Rinpoche's collection


S: Is ther a special training for tertons? Or are you just recognized as a terton? How does that work?

SDR: At this moment I'm not recognized as a terton or anything. I don't claim to be a terton. It depends on the specific time. If the time is arising, then these mind transmissions will arise. At that time one will get the indications from the wisdom dakinis where the specific terma is. And terma can be in the ground or in the mind. It depends - there are so many kinds of terma: space terma, earth terma, water terma, air terma, and mind terma.

S: Are there particular practices to prepare one to receive terma?

SDR: There is nothing to prepare. It's prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy. It just depends on the right time. At the right moment the revelations will occurr. The quality, and practice, and training can also remove a lot of the obstacles and make a clearer path for these transmissions to arise. One could put one's total effort into the practice, and one would be a more suitable vessel in that respect.

S: Rinpoche, has your practice and study been particularly focused in specific areas?

SDR: My trainings have been in the trainings of yoga. My speciality is in the training of yoga. Therse are the teachings of the Buddha, and more particularly, these are the teachings of Guru Rinpoche. These relate to the three essences: essence of nerves, essence of wind, and essence of the seed - it's called "thigley". From the yoga point of view, the training is to learn how to bring purification to the wind, nerve, and essence. The heart of the teachings of the protectors and dakinis - their essence is based on the practice of the yoga. This has been my training. It's a whole field of awareness. We are totally affected by that: we have so many nerve obscurations resulting from sicknesses, wind obscurations manifesting as mental disturbances, thigley obscurations arising as a degeneration of our cells, bringing negative emotions up. "Tsa" is nerve, "lung" is wind, and "thigley" is seed. In the gross aspect, it is seed, in the subtle aspect it is the realization of the mind, which relates to clarity and luminosity. So when we are talking about rainbow body, and the perfection of Dzogchen, perfection of Dzogchen comes with the perfection of tsa-lung, which will greatly enhance complete understanding of awareness. This is another sphere of training.

It is important to understand this, because in Tibet there have been very few tsa-lung pratiotioners. The yoga of tsa-lung-thigley practice, is actually three different ways the mind receives the three kayas. Perception of the nerves arises as tsa, the internal movement of the wind which the mind is resting on is lung, and thigley is penetrating the core of the depth of realization itself. It's nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya, and dharmakaya.

It's a whole training on it's own. That training we have in the monastic tradition as well as in the lay tradition. In that, we have two approaches, which are "penetrating through somebody else" and "penetrating through self". It may be in the other traditions, but I would think that most profoundly, this is a Nyingma teaching. It deals with the dakini practice, and the terma of dakini practice. It means that it's the core of realization.

From the time of your birth you are already bringing obscurations of your nerves, and the winds, by being in the wrong circumstances, or environmental situations. There can also be coincidental negative actions that you have commited in birth that can affect you as you are growing up too.

There are certain right etiquettes. From the time you are conceived in the womb it depends how your parents are thinking about you, there are certain negative memories of their thought that you cling to, are attached to and then later on don't understand. The way you relate to your parents can come directly from being caught by that thought. It's a very delicate thing here.

Some sense of gross negativity happening can be the influence of karma. Many things happening simultaneously can also be an indication that it is arising so you can work with it.

But some things can be accidental and coincidental too. I mean, if you walk on the road and a car hits you, that doesn't mean that the karma was for the car to hit you. It's your negligence of not looking properly...(laughs). To define that as karma is very, very difficult. Everything that we don't understand, we can't say, "It's karma". From the time you are in the womb, through growing up, you could have had obscurations. Say there was a negative person, and your parents, let's say, let you wear their clothes - there are an infinite number of obscurations...wearing other people's clothes can bring obscurations, running under defiled things can bring obscurations, negative energy of defined things can bring obscurations. That doesn't mean it's karma, right? You are running into it.

Karma really means freezing of your past negative actions, and in that freezing there is no way to escape it. From practice you can purify it, but from any other point of view there is no escape. Karma is something very serious concerning life and death. It won't be something light - things just not working for you, or you just having a little bit of sickness - that's not karma. Karma is more heavy.

When karma accumulates, and you have not paid back that karma debt owed, sometimes it can fall altogether at the same time. Or it can be spread out. It just depends on your psychic strength, where you can spread it out evenly so you can take it - or your weakness in which everything just falls down at once. Basically it's karmic debts that haven't been paid back. So those have to be paid back, so you have practices like incense offering, fire practice, there are many practices that repay karma to beings with form or without form. Doesn't matter. It's the action itself that has to be purified. Karma from the tsa-lung-thigley point of view, we understand that in the meridian channel all your actions are engrained in the form of movement, subtle movement. In tsa-lung-thigley we learn how to bring it out, so that it can be heated and purified by the wisdom heat.

S: As I understand it, His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche died last year in France.

SDR: Yes, that's right.

S: Can you say anything about the period of time before his death, the parinirvana itself, and the time afterwards - the samadhi?

SDR: Well, there are many extraordinary things that happened, but at this moment, since his body has not been taken back to the original destination which is in Nepal, and he has not been consecrated in the stupa, much of these activities cannot be disclosed, because the activity is not fulfilled. Within that, any misunderstanding or projection that might arise with regard to the pure state of the displays can cause confusion, and might also create some imbalance in the way things should work. Not much has been disclosed at this moment. Suffice it to say that since he is one of the greatest realized masters, there is no question that he displayed perfect signs of realization - there is no question about it at all. It has affected those of us who are practitioners, those of us that are non-practitioners, even the physicians who attended His Holiness - all of us have been greatly moved by this.

One thing is that he remained in meditation for fourteen days. He went into total meditation. He changed his posture completely; his passing away posture was different from his meditative posture. He was in the posture of subdueing all negativity; he had one hand in his lap, and the other hand was back. When he passed away he was sitting up with his hands in front, on his knees. Then he put his hand back into the subjugating posture and he remained in that posture for fourteen days. We believe that during that process of meditation was the fulfillment of his aspiration to remove...basically, war, disease, famine, things that need to be removed. At that point he was really manifesting the full force of the kayas. Locked in nirmanakaya, displaying brilliance in sambhogakaya, and in dharmakaya, his mind remained unganging. So it has moved us.

And his passing away has not been unpredicted. He already made very clear from the very beginning. He manifested the signs of illness, so that we could have less attachment to him. That is a skillful means for us to let him leave his body in that way. That is out of total compassion. From the point of view of passing away, in the innermost sense of it, he had already passed away two years ago. What remained was the outer form that gave us a sense of working with our emotions.

S: His body is currently being preserved?

SDR: His body is currently being preserved as it is. That's very unique and very rare. In Tibet, a terton's body being preserved is very rare. And that preservation requires many qualities, to keep it that way.

Normally it's the aspiration. Having passed away, he leaves his body behind so that future students can connect, just by seeing himin the stupa. Because as he's put in the stupa, his face will be visible for all the devotees.

S: His body is being preserved in salt?

SDR: At the moment we take the precaution of putting salt, so there will be no moisture, so that the body dries. But the important aspect is that the posture of the body is remaining in meditation still, and it is as it is. The body is in that posture as a benefit for future generations.

S: And the body will be placed in the stupa, and there will be a way that one can look in and see?

SDR: Oh yes, definetly, the face will be visible.

S: It sounds like an extraordinary stupa.

SDR: Well, the stupa is being build according to our tradition. There are many different ways of building it, but Venerable Chadral Rinpoche, who is one of the foremost teachers, is the one who has been making the stupa. He is the master modeler of the structure. So he's been doing that, and that's ready.

S: So there will be a window.

SDR: Where the vase section of the stupa is - the vase is the circular, cylindrical shape. Within that there will be a glass, and within that the devotees can see.

S: Is that unusual?

SDR: The body will not decompose in a situation like that. It will remain as it is...the face, every expression.

S: As if one were looking at a picture of His Holiness?

SDR: Exactly the same. But it won't be a picture. It will be the real thing.

S: Why has there been such a long time until his body could be placed in the shrine?

SDR: There is enormous work in building a stupa, and particularly there, because the whole monastery is being renovated. New buildings are being put up. In fact, what we've done is broken down the old walls of the monastery and built up a new temple there. So that the whole temple which is three stories high is for him. That's taking time. And the fresco paintings which are being done by the top artists we have in our lineage take time. When you visit the monastery, you will see the enormous amount of work that is needed for that. Until the monastery is ready, until the stupa is ready, there is no way to just take his body back. It is better to keep it where it is, because in France we have all the practitioners there, and it a pure blessing to have His Holiness there - we still feel his presence. We feel that he is very much there. That's in Dordogne, in the south of France. That's where we have our retreat center, and other centers are also there. It's right next to the Kagyu center there, they are very close.



The Dudjom Stupa, Boudanath, Nepal


S: Your father was head of the entire Nyingma school?

SDR: That's right.

S: And now His Holiness Khyentse Rinpoche is the head of the Nyingmapa.

SDR: Officially speaking, the appointment has to come from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As we know, in our lineage, there are many heads of lineages. But I think to this point the Dalai Lama hasn't yet appointed anybody to take over the head of the Nyingma lineage. It's very important that Dudjom Rinpoche's bodily remains are brought back first, and we can complete that whole cycle.

S: You are your father's dharma heir?

SDR: Yes.

S: Meaning that you hold the Tersar lineage.

SDR: Yes.

S: Did he give transmission of the other lineages that he held to other people?

SDR: Whoever wanted whatever teachings...he was like a vast treasure house that way. So that's why he became one of the foremost lineage holders during this century. There is no lama that he has not taught, there is no lama that he has not given to. So in fact, according to certain of the inner prophecies, Rinpoche was holding the key of the four schools, and being, really, the aspect of accomplishment.

S: Was His Holiness Khyentse Rinpoche a student of your father?

SDR: Yes, Khyentse Rinpoche received a lot of teachings from my father. Yes, he was a student of my father.

A lot depends on the activity, on having a popular way of reaching out, of being able to penetrate that title. People are very free these days in calling someone a lama or a rinpoche or anything for that matter.

S: More from Western students?

SDR: It's coming more from this side (laughing) than from anywhere else.

Everything will ultimately go back to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, because he is the spiritual and temporal ruler of Tibet. Our aspiration and focus is totally towards the Dalai Lama, because he is the symbol of unity. We have many centuries of skillful means of his manifestation. There is no doubt for anybody, for any lama or any being. He is the final authority.

S: May we ask a bit about your plans?

SDR: At this moment, I don't have many plans, frankly. My most important task is to take my father's remains back to Kathmandu, so that thousands and thousands of disciples coming from Tibet, India, and all over, will be able to come and participate in the offering pujas that he will do. And my main emphasis at this time is just to fulfill that last cycle of paying homage to His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche. When this is brought about, all the disciples will be happy, and can at least participate in the accumulation of merit. We can be together to do all these practices and so forth. That's my main focus. Dudjom International Foundation (now transformed into Dudjom Shenphen Foundation) is a foundation I just recently started connected to my father's work. My main work is to translate his bodhisattva activity into a very physical aspect. Not that he hasn't done that - he has started schools, he has started dharma centers. But this is a continuation of that in the field of charity.

I hope that over a longer period this will become a very important foundation, bring Rinpoche's aspiration in the field of charity, and making it more tangible - in the sense that it can reach out to every kind of person, not just the dharma practitioners. Offshoots of dharma: translating into education, training in the Vajrayana path, the field of medicine and psychotherapy. In my father's terma there are a lot of teachings dealing with that.

I have many other priorities that are set in my mind that I need to go more deeply into. I want to go more deeply into my own religion. I want to bring the work of the lineage to a more open public so that they can realize the beauty of the depth of the teachings.

I'm in a position where I have to consolidate the centers, rather than put more centers out. I think, fortunately, that there is no gap at this moment in the way the centers are. There is no political gap, or whatever you want to call it. It just came directly from His Holiness that I'm to hold the lineage, and everyone has accepted it, and we're all working together, so I think we have a very harmonious situation now. I'm not thinking of really expanding at this moment, at all. I'd rather consolidate those old students who have made some connection to His Holiness, and some new students who want to come in. But I want to keep that to a minimum. I want to place emphasis more on my own internal training that I have to go through.

S: More retreats?

SDR: Yes, I'm looking forward to that. More retreats, and more consolidating all the older students of His Holiness, getting them together, setting up schools, setting up education that can train people in the Vajrayana path. Many things we can't know now will arise. But as far as setting up the priorities, it's just to finish the whole thing in Kathmandu, so that's stabilized completely.

S: Will you be doing your retreats in France, or Kathmandu, or where?

SDR: It really depends. If I can put lamas who are responsible in the various centers, and lamas who can communicate the teachings, or lamas who can take the administration, and really bring it about, that will give me time to practice. Definitely I will practice in the holy areas, if possible, where the great sages have practiced before, bringing that energy bringing that blessing of the special quality. But if not, then I won't be stagnated by having to think that's the only way I could...I could be anywhere. I could even be out here.

S: In the barbarian lands of California?

SDR: Anywhere. Most important is, do I have the right instructions, do I have the right guidance? That's important. If I have that, place wouldn't matter.

S: Rinpoche, do you have a date in mind for bringing your father's remains to Nepal?

SDR: Yes, more or less. It's not an exact, specific date, I would think it will be in the middle of Janurary (1989). That would be the right thing to do. The date hasn't been fixed yet, but according to the French government, we have to pick an exact date, because when we take His Holiness's body, each territory we cross, we have to get permission.

S: You're taking his remains over land?

SDR: Well, from Dordogne to Paris, each division you cross, the mayor must okay it. From Paris we'll definetly fly. When I go back, then an exact date will be finalized. We have to have at least two months for the government to do all their paperwork.

S: In reading the flyer of which teachings you are giving during your visit here, it seemed that you were giving what looked like rather advanced Vajrayana teachings. We've been exposed to two different styles with regard to that. Our teacher Trungpa Rinpoche was very strict that way: one had to do this practice first, then the next, and os on. On the other hand, Kalu Rinpoche had a feeling to do more public events. What is your feeling about giving Vajrayana teachings to Westerners. Which style would you say you are more inclined toward?

SDR: (Laughs.) Actually, it depends on the mind of the teacher really. What is the skillful means? It doesn't mean one way is right and one way is wrong. According to the different mental make-ups, the approaches are different. Normally in the Vajrayana training, you have to go thoroughly. It's a very systematized approach. There is no way one can be very lenient about it. You have to go though the right process of trainig. Though one can be more formative in making a structure, while some lamas don't want so much structure as going into the opening of the teachings first, and then later, bring them into a structured form. You can start from a structured form, or you can open up, and then, after giving a taste of the teachings, then structure.

Both approaches, what can you say? There is no fault in either approach. Now obviously, if you are going to get too stuck in the formative stage of the trainingt, then sometimes, practitioners can be disillusioned with a very structured way, and not see the absolute inner opening of the Vajrayana, which is very important. It's important to have at least a glimpse and a taste of these teachings. The approach can be from East or West, doesn't matter.

The important thing is that the students are maintaining the samaya, that the students are understanding, and removing their basic poisons. It's not so much a technicality of what is, but the profoundness of wisdom and compassion of Vajrayana teaching.

As far as I've seen, I've seen many teachers teach very different ways. There is not one set way of going about it. Some teachers go straightaway into Dzogchen, and then later go into lower yana perspective and training. Some teachers start from the lower yana progressive training and go up. It just depends on what the teacher envisions to be the best.

Certainly at this moment it seems that dharma is becoming a sellable item. The danger may be there, when the false teachers arise. One can be very vulnerable and opened up, and exposed, and all of a sudden somebody comes and taps that energy, and misuses it. That's where I see the danger. As long as the teachers are genuine, I don't see anything wrong with the approach. Where you have to be careful is with all the self-made teachers that are arising now.

S: Have you encountered much of that?

SDR: Well, coming out to the West, I've seen many. I encountered ordinary people who are now having titles of "rinpoche", or l"lama". Certainly"lama" is a selling item, at this time.

S: Do you mean other Tibetans have been taking these titles?

SDR: Yes. It's like an ordinary practitioner who comes here seeking to make fortune. They have some close students who refer to them as "rinpoche". From the organization of the spiritual body, it's very facile. There is nobody to say "That's not it." There is no kind of order coming, which recognizes or doesn't recognize. There is no board. But that's a problem in any religion, so it's not specifically us.

S: Are there Nyingma ngondro practices; is the Nyingma approach to Vajrayana the same as the Kagyu?

SDR: Exactly the same. Exactly. There is no difference. Between the Kagyu, Nyingma, basically all the teachings of Buddha in the Vajrayana approach, all would be the same. You go through the same stages of ngondro: starting by refuge, bodhicitta, accumulation of merit, purification, Dorje Sempa, coming to the Guru Yoga practice. Those trainings are the same. In some practices, the wrathful practices, there are some wrathful ngondros. Then there may be slight variations, but generally the approach will be the same.

Usually though, the visualizations will be the same; Dorje Chang, or Guru Rinpoche in the center with the refuge tree, left bodhisattvas, right Buddhas, in front dharma protectors, in the back, sound of the holy syllables. It will be exactly the same. In some cases, certain protectors and their aspects have been more emphasized. When we do the general practice, appropriating all the protectors, it will be exactly the same. All the protectors are there, but some are connected to a particular terma to be protected, and then they will be more involved.

S: Well, Your Eminence, I've run out of questions. If there is anything you would like to say to Western students of Buddhism...especially the readers of the Vajradhatu Sun.

SDR: Well, my message is just, foremost, to take the Vajrayana path as a gem. Definetly work towards harmonizing inner and outer - balancing their nature. Try to reach a part of the practice where they have united. The essence of all teachings comes to understanding emptiness, clarity, and compassion. I would simply say to practice sincerely and not just be caught by the outer appearance of dharma. Really penetrate the inner essence.

With regard to Trungpa Rinpoche, I met him in Boulder. I met him in New York before that. I think you have had a very qualified and a very skillful teacher. By practicing in harmony, staying together, one can create the situation for him to come back, meet with you again and continue the teachings. Once you have aspiration, and dedicate yourself to the practice, I think that will unfold.

In Europe, we have people doing practically the same practices. Betweek Kagyu and Nyingma, it's practically the same. Unlike in the past, when some distance was kept, I think it's time to bridge that distance, and have more open mind, more honestly look into what are the possibilities of every school. I feel that now we can not work in a limited way at all. We are in a stage now where we have to respect every form of practice in the teaching of Buddha. I think you are setting an example here in the West which will be very crucial in the East too. My hope is that the West, and the kind of community that is happening will speak loudly to the East. Really that sense of unity in the East is rare - anyway that's my hope.

All the heads of lineage of the Kagyu lineages are all qualified teachers. There is no question, no doubt of their ability at all - transmission point of view - I think the Kagyu lineage is very fortunate to have it. If you follow together, and don't try to make a distinction between this and that, and try to cause confusion within that, then I think you have a very stable dharma growing. What Trungpa Rinpoche has planted is like the seeds, and what will come out of it will be shoots, and what the fruit will be will be your realization, bring more clarity, bring not only our minds into balance, but our exterior environment into balance, respecting every form of life. That respect, and that compassion I think is the key to Buddha's teaching.


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